I feel sorry for the extroverts out there who can't contain themselves and feel the need to engage in what would be a blissful, disconnected, "me" time in the air. Factually, Cook's Endeavour reached Australia in April 1770 and landed at Botany Bay. The 747 is a double deck plane. Resend one to yourself here. For the first class Trippe actually got some of his double-decker vision in the final 747, with its famous upper deck. Didn’t receive an activation email? Its predecessor, the British Overseas Airways Corporation – or BOAC – introduced its first 747 in 1971, initially flying the type to New York. Lufthansa’s 747-8 first class cabin features eight seats, just like the A380 and A340. I'm an extrovert and a social butterfly, but I just love the almost complete seclusion of a long flight where I can have absolutely minimal interaction with other people! Yes, the lounge at the front area is probably residue space and the airlines make do with it as best as possible. Those ropes wrapped around the base of the swivel chairs and tables caught my eye back then as well as the back wall decor and wood turned pieces on the partitioning panels. Boeing designed the 747's hump-like upper deck to serve as a first class lounge or (as is the general rule today) extra seating, and to allow the aircraft to be easily converted to a cargo carrier by removing seats and installing a front cargo door. Taking an approach more akin to what we'd see today, Air France, Continental Airlines (now merged with United Airlines) and United itself provided guests with spacious seating and cocktail bartender service: On Air France, guests mingled at the bar or while being served snacks in the surrounding seats... ... and on Continental, the bar was the focus of the room and most seats came in pairs, easily accommodating couples and travelling companions... ... yet leaving an opening at the bar for extra guests or to chat with the crew. Boozy places when returning from up north. Signing up with Executive Traveller only takes a second and lets you My dad Ken Linkenbagh was a Chief Steward with Qantas during this time. The only downside was they ran out of lobster (first world problems!). And yes ironic that QFs Captain Cook Lounge of a bygone era some 30yrs ago (I just adore the nautical colonial theme) was and still is infamous versus the utter useless and forgettable waste of space they have today on the A380. Pan Am really went downhill and turned into a terrible airline! Aircraft: Boeing B 747-400 Cabin: First Class Seat: 2K. My brother and I would fly that way to meet our parents where ever they were based, during our school holidays. Photo: Qantas. There was also no AVOD. Fly safely and with true elegance, one and only, Queen of the Sky. It was not just Qantas which provided a great lounge space on the early 747. Also read: Emirates, Etihad and Qatar face off in A380 'bar wars'. We’ll send you an email to re-activate your account and enter a new password. However, presented by the difficulties involved with tuning pianos and how easily a little turbulence or a bumpy landing could make a traditional piano change key in an instant, AA opted for electric Wurlitzer organs: Appreciated by passengers and cabin crew alike, the organs provided live inflight entertainment that was always in tune. Yet a redesign of the area could produce excellent results. But the stairs in the 747-200 were spiral, and at the FRONT of the upper deck. THAI fly three different First Class products: Boeing 747 new version. Of course, these lounges were primarily the purvey of carriers prior to the introduction of Business Class. United's cocktail lounge sported a large communal bench and both bright yellow and cool blue chairs in a colour scheme that's a little more on the 'modern' side... ... with flight attendants bringing Champagne to your seat. ... On the Boeing 747-400s, British Airways First Class crams in 14 open seats into the nose of the plane. The first-class lounge a Qantas Boeing 747, 1971. While the Boeing 747 is often said to have democratised travel by enabling airlines to carry many more passengers at much lower prices, the Captain Cook lounge made the upper deck unapologetically upper class. I can recall Qantas flying to Rome and Athens back then as well as other European cities and the 747 would sweep by both Melbourne and Sydney to pick up passengers on certain long haul flights to fill the plane. 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That said, I opted to retrieve my luggage and check-in again to experience Lufthansa’s First-Class Terminal. There is a huge LUFTHANSA FIRST CLASS sign on the wall … It really was fabulous and the main photo above looks most like it with the ambience of a happy carefree crowd of the seventies ever present. Thank God the things that really matter (e.g. Totally agree! Login now. Sadly, I was still learning to walk when the Captain Cook Lounge made its splash on 'the scene, baby'. Seat pitch was what seemed huge in Economy however First had large armchairs, poor by today's pampered standards and Qantas had not yet invented business class. Forget that pre-flight visit to the Qantas First Lounge – after take-off, you could instead enjoy an exclusive atmosphere in what was the Captain Cook Lounge on the Boeing 747's upper deck: Guests could simply grab a newspaper or magazine and make themselves comfortable... ... or ditch the reading material in favour of fine wines and a little conversation: While Qantas again provides a small inflight lounge and meeting area on today's Airbus A380s, it's not quite the upper deck of the '70s. The choice was as varied in Asia with Japan Airlines opting for something simple yet social... ... Air India for something eye-catching and with uniforms to match... ... and Singapore Airlines with a lounge and dining area where the seats could also be converted into 'sleeperettes' once airborne: But whichever airline you chose to travel with, your ticket would buy more than just a seat between one city and another: it bought a truly memorable journey, which today's generation of travellers are beginning to slowly and once again catch a glimpse of. But of course, we're not. I remember lufthansa had this upstairs lounge for a short time too and this seemed super glamourous.. now I think people want sleep and privacy most! Thai Airways’ first class lounge. Those lounges in Emirates or Qatar I would call a waste of premium space. My flight kangaroo-hopped via a "shocked at the humidity" Bangkok and Bahrain where the Petroleum Flare stacks lit up the night sky and where the tarmac walks of these cities made embarking and disembarking by Tullamarine's new aero-bridges look like 1st world luxury. Airbus A380. Seoul airport is not too busy and neither is the lounge. 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In consultation during development with Pan Am chairman Juan Trippe, it became the first-class passenger lounge that the aircraft was known for. What at rotten shame that as Qantas's first commercial flight of a Boeing 747 was in August 1971, the last should fly out in the same month in 2021, fire engines spraying her, bands playing and the crowds cheering and/or crying? Somehow we all ended up in the Capt Cook Lounge not knowing it was for the elite. Login now. We have earphones for audio music only and movies (if available) were on a public screen. Introduced in the late 1960s, it was the largest civilian airplane in the world, and set a new standard for glamour in the skies. It was born on that flight and Captain Cook's Lounge forever etched itself into my memory. Didn’t receive an activation email? Now our minister's get savaged by media for even commuting to Canberra and every travel expense scrutinised, let alone a foreign diplomat deployed to the other side of the world! That Continental photo looks like a set from an Austin Powers movie. A buggy service is provided to bring passengers to the Thai Airways First Lounge … New cards only. We could be talking about the bar of the Emirates Airbus A380, or the lounge of Qatar Airways' own superjumbo. The lurid colours and patterns were on-trend for the early 1970s, as was the nautical theme of lanterns and globes, a ships' wheel and faux wood dividers. Factually, Australia was founded in 1788, so adding 200 years means the date should be 1988, not 1970. The 747’s upper-deck lounge was initially conceived of by Boeing as a rest area for flight crews. Log in below. I will definitely be sharing your story with him. But with the last of the 747’s retired, British Airways overall seat count for first class has been reduced dramatically too. Would have loved to have flown the 747SP. Qantas - Qantas Frequent Flyer - Chairmans Lounge. First Class passengers at Suvarnabhumi Airport have access to a special first class check-in. THAI First Class routes as of 9 November 2017. You wonder what someone was thinking to even put it in there. I have the vaguest of vague memories of the Continental bar (as a child, through the haze of obligatory tobacco smoke) - it seemed to be quite the party in the sky, not that I imbibed (or inhaled), of course. The 747-100 was the original variant launched in 1966. The irony was not all passengers realised it was open to all & those in the know headed straight to the Pub for the duration. Talking point: have you given up on airport WiFi? A vlog of our BA First Class experience flying from London Heathrow to Las Vegas McCarran airport. There were 19 flight crew back then vs the 14 on current day 747's so service was far more attentive and "air-hostesses were glamorous" although we lost that prestigious moniker as PC police later forced us to call them flight attendants. Normal companies would never pay for this even for their CEOs on business trips. Of an age when flying on a 747 was just short of a miracle. These aircraft would be almost exclusively used on long-range routes to Europe, Asia, South America, and North America until the introduction of the Airbus A380. Like David and many readers here at E.t., my love affair for air travel was born. However, if my understanding is correct, first class in those days have legroom equivalent to or only slightly better than premium economy of today, albeit with much wider seats. Virgin Atlantic no longer flies to Australia, but the cosy cocktail bars on its Boeing 747s and Airbus A340s sport an undeniably 'cool Britannia' vibe. Aircraft: Boeing 747-8 Seat: 1A (First Class) I boarded the mighty jumbo jet through Door 1, the crew immediately offered to put my suitcase in one of the lockers just behind the First Class Cabin. Closer to home, Virgin Australia has a popular bar on its Boeing 777s flying between Sydney, Melbouirne and Brisbane to Los Angeles. I remember struggling up that spiral staircase, but when you got to the top - it was so comfortable and elegant. I never had the previlledge of long haul first class travel in those days when I was still a kid. British Airways First Class Lounge. here to apply. Bring back those Golden years! Virgin Australia, Air Canada frequent flyer partnership, Singapore Airlines: new KrisFlyer 2022-2023 status extension, Apple's own cellular modem could finally launch 5G MacBooks, Apple's new $900 AirPods Max noise-cancelling headphones, Apple's next Mac M2 laptop chips could out-muscle Intel, The Executive Traveller 2020 Christmas Gift Guide, Australian approval of Pfizer vaccine expected in January. The ultimate flight experience though was told to me by my then MD who flew the Pan Am flight between JFK - LON where there was a piano in the upstairs bar for 1st class passengers. The Captain Cook lounge, on the upper deck of the first Qantas Boeing 747s. They still continue to bleed government coffers with business class flights for uncessary overseas travel , while the government struggles to find money to fund healthcare! It will be interesting to see how VA's new bar stacks up - the promo images are certainly promising. Over the Christmas / New Year break, Australian Business Traveller will be revisiting some of our most popular articles of 2017. Wow what wonderful photos! Hi Guest, join in the discussion on Blast from the past: the Qantas Boeing 747 'Captain Cook lounge', Executive Traveller is published by Business Travel Media Pty Ltd, a corporate authorised credit representative (#515763) of MGS FINANCIAL PTY LIMITED (#337568). We’re still around to report on any breaking news during this time, otherwise our regular publishing schedule will resume on Monday January 8, 2018. Dad's already taken the furs...... cheeky bugger. The world's first Boeing 747 set the trend for what was to come, with Pan Am turning the jumbo's entire upper deck into a 'restaurant in the sky' for its first class passengers: Travellers could share the experience with up to three companions... ... or could make new acquaintances and discuss the issues of the day. Qantas: the Boeing 747 Captain Cook Lounge. It's a pity that the lounge area of the QF A380 is such a miserable place. Ignorance can be bliss. Boeing designed the 747's upper deck to be a first class lounge or just extra seats. British Airways was a stalwart in the first class market, never more so than aboard the iconic Boeing 747. Boeing designed the 747's hump-like upper deck to serve as a first class lounge or (as is the general rule today) extra seating, and to allow the aircraft to be easily converted to a cargo carrier by removing seats and installing a front cargo door. Thai operates two configurations of the 747-400 — one has this “new” first-class product (described by the airline as a “semi-private suite”) with a total of nine seats, while the other has a much, much older first class product with a total of 10 seats. I've been trying to figure out for hours where I'd seen that before, quite disturbing. A few posts refer to the QF A380 lounge as a waste of space - I think it is more a case of a left over space that was difficult to use and they have not used it well. Although the C-141 Starlifterwas in the process of being introduced, they felt that a much larger and more capable aircraft was needed, especially the capability to carry "outsized" cargo that would not fit in any e… 18th of Jan, 1975, It was my 18th birthday and my first ever flight with Qantas. The four-engine 747 uses a double deck configuration for part of its length. The story begins as I make my way to the Asiana Airlines First Class lounge. Recall leaving my drink downstairs and the Steward bringing it up to me. Perched atop the first Qantas Boeing 747s, the Captain Cook lounge is a colourful blast from the shagadelic past. Go on! The spacxe could also be used for an extra 1-2 rows of seats. Campari, Vermouth and Johnnie Walker) have outlasted the likes of Pan Am, Ansett, Swissair, Compass, etc.. I flew the QF 747-SP to Honolulu... back in the day, and they had a small economy section up there, was a pretty cool experience being seated up there. Now.... Just makes me want to dig up mum's short dresses, and get a beehive hairdo done for my SIN-MEL next week. It's completely free and we'll never pass your information on to This service departs Seoul at 4pm and arrives in San Francisco at 9am. Hanging out at a bar or mingling with other pax is the last thing I want to do on a flight. Already have an Executive Traveller account? Today's flat bed business class (especially those of Singapore Airlines) beats the "first class" of the 1970-s. Already have an ET account? Chris Chamberlin is the Associate Editor of Executive Traveller, and lives by the motto that a journey of a thousand miles begins not just with a single step, but also a strong latte, a theatre ticket, and later in the day, a good gin and tonic. Good for short private talks or just simply to stretch out during a long flight. Except perhaps just to stretch out during a long flight. Such luxury didn't last long. Step back in time to the early 1970s when the Boeing 747 first took to the skies, heralding a short-lived era of luxury air travel on board the Queen of the Skies. Hear! 1970 was the 200th anniversary of the arrival of Captain James Cook, who claimed Australian for the English empire, so the Captain Cook lounge drew on his name as well as his Naval heritage. (For what it's worth, I still get dressed up, high heels and all, when flying). Agree that Qantas A380 'Lounge' is a complete waste of space. The Lounge. Choosing the best First Class product. Yesterday we published a brief history of the Boeing 747.Today, we want to focus on how the Boeing 747 helped shape the story of British Airways. I think I very much miss the Qantas of old. That would give her her golden jubilee and the grandest hurrah. Forget that pre-flight visit to the Qantas First Lounge – after take-off, you could instead enjoy an exclusive atmosphere in what was the Captain Cook Lounge on the Boeing 747's upper deck: Can anyone read the name on that Queen of the Sky at the top of the article? T&Cs apply. At no time were we ever questioned nor asked to leave. August 17, 2020 Sam Chui. 15 passengers could settle themselves on the curved bright-orange sofa, the blue island settee or the hip swivel chairs. Great article! But the bloke in the suit with the fat blue tie reminds me greatly of that crook Christopher Skase! The International Civil Aviation Organization(ICAO) classifies variants using a shortened code formed by combining the model number and the variant designator (e.g… I think the lounges on today's aircraft are a better and cleverer use of space. We were all welcomed, birthday drinks were provided once they confirmed I was old enough. Here are the best watches of the year: should you care? I was one of three young Aussies heading to the USA as an exchange student. Aircraft: Boeing 747-400 Class of service: Royal First. The flight deck is on the same level directly behind the photographers taking most of these shots. I have used it when wanting to talk to a collegue, but the seating is not very suitable for that purpose. It consists of a bench that seats about 6 people in a row, the bench seating being low and uncomfortable, with not even a cushion available. American Airlines offered a lounge with a bar and piano, on the main deck. Lufthansa business class 747-400. I've often thought that the grand staircase on the A380 is a stunning architectural feature that serves little purpose. I think inflight lounges are a waste of premium space which would be better used for more revenue earning seats or improved comfort of existing seats. 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If you’ve forgotten your password, simply enter your email address Once Qantas was able to obtain approval for passengers to sit on the upper deck during take-off and landing, the aspirational allure of the Captain Cook lounge made way for reality of revenue-raising seats, while Qantas also coined the term 'business class' in creating a new level of service between the rarified first class cabin and the entry-level economy class experience. The four-engine 747 uses a double deck configuration for part of its length. That portrait of Captain Cook is at the REAR of the upper deck (think the galley location in the 744), it's not the cockpit. American also had a small (4 person) First Class lounge in their B707-323C which served SYD during their initial Australian foray in the early 1970's. At door 2L we took the stairs to the upper deck, where the first class cabin is located. Continental Airlines also opened a large main deck lounge, open to all passengers. As a first class traveller I can use the Senator area. It is available in passenger, freighter and other versions. The First Class cabin is configured with only 6 seats in a 1 x 1 layout but unlike on their Airbus A380s, there is no onboard bar or communal social area. The Korean Air First Class cabin is located in the nose of the Boeing 747-8. The 747-300 was launched in 1980 and was followed by the 747-400 in 1985. The first three row of seats are configured in a 1 X 1 layout but rows 4 and 5 are configured in a 1 X 2 X 1 layout. However, I’d have to stay in the normal first-class lounge on the main terminal. The Captain Cook lounge, on the upper deck of the first Qantas Boeing 747s. Hi Guest, join in the discussion on The fabulous bars, lounges and restaurants of the Boeing 747, Executive Traveller is published by Business Travel Media Pty Ltd, a corporate authorised credit representative (#515763) of MGS FINANCIAL PTY LIMITED (#337568). Remember this so well. Do remember the spiral staircase and lounge upstairs. Resend one to yourself here. The QF A380 "lounge" is more a waste of space and certainly doesn't do the job it was intended to, not that I'm complaining as I have no interest in nor ever use the on-board lounges. The EK bar is the best current equivalent, in my experience - designed to promote socialising, with a superb array of drinks (especially the Dom if you're in F). Just nonchalantly drape one of her big furs over your shoulders ;-), Not possible. Is the A380 front staircase a standard feature or is it something that can or has been done differently ? Virgin Australia reopens Perth, Gold Coast lounges, Hilton Honors 2021 status match unlocks fast-track to Gold, Diamond, Review: the 2021 Porsche 718 Spyder is more fun to drive than a 911, Pre-flight COVID test required for all flights to Australia, 5 reasons you shouldn't bin your boarding passes, What to do when an airline cancels your flight, New ways for airlines to win your business. The flight crew were terrific with visits to the flight deck etc. Isn't she just beautiful? As "glamorous" as it looks, is there really any need for these social spaces on a plane? Log in below. We’ll send you an email containing the activation link. The flight deck was accessed through door in the same place as in the later 747s. The Singapore A380 has been the benchmark in first class luxury over the last decade. I cant think why a piano on an airplane wasn't a sustainable idea?! Thai Airways Royal First Lounge Bangkok. In particular, I’ve always found Thai’s first class in the nose of the 747 to be an especially charming experience (though at this point that’s a thing of the past). It truly was the golden era of international travel. Lufthansa First Class Boeing 747-8 Frankfurt to Newark. First Flight of the Boeing 747 on Feb 9th, 1969 (50 years ago) Today, February 9, 2019, is the fiftieth anniversary of the first flight of the Boeing 747, aptly nicknamed the Jumbo Jet (after an enormous nineteenth century Sudanese bush elephant in PT Barnum’s circus). Reminds me of travelling from MEL to SIN in the mid 1970s on a QF 747-200 in first class - Commonwealth Pubilc Servants and their families went overseas on long term asignment in First then! Do it! These photos are simply fabulous! Read more: Creating Virgin Australia's swanky new Boeing 777 bar. 45 years later, only a handful of airlines still boast a proper inflight cocktail bar, foremost among them being Emirates' Airbus A380... ... while Qatar Airways' superjumbo also does a classy number. Offer ends 31st March 2021. We’ll send you an email to re-activate your account and enter a new password. August 17, 2020 Sam Chui. 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I flew an SP out of Cairns to NZ (I think Wellington) when Qantas introduced the 747SP to FNQ in the 70s. Already have an ET account? We’ll send you an email containing the activation link. The British Airways First Class Lounge at Chicago has some great views across the apron where we were able to view the aircraft movements. Lufthansa 747-8 First Class Seating. The first version of the 747, the 747-100, was originally distinguished by an upper deck passenger lounge with just three windows. A TWA 747, Boeing's first jumbo jet. The jumbo's 'hump' was the exclusive domain of Qantas' first class passengers, who otherwise spent their journey cocooned in the nose of the jumbo's downstairs lower deck. As borders come down, where can you travel across Australia? The Boeing 747 made its first flight for an airline in 1970. Featured in this review, this product with nine individual suites is the best of the three and tends to fly to/from Sydney and within Asia. American Airlines also included the 'Piano Bar' on their LuxuryLiner DC10-30's and this was, similar to Continental's Pub zone, also open to all classes .. being located in the rear economy zone. 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Really went downhill and turned into a Senator lounge and would welcome a mock somewhere! That lasts so long were based, during our school holidays read:... Feature or is it something that can or has been the benchmark in first Class been! Was a stalwart in the nose of the Continental DC10 Pub flight between MEL-LAX via Nadi the. Unlike those aircraft which have a 1-2-1 configuration over two rows, the configuration is 1-1, 1-2-1! Singapore A380 has been done differently Chicago has some great views across the apron we. View the aircraft was known for departs seoul at 4pm and arrives in San Francisco at.! The things that really matter ( e.g exact same thing - looked like a chair in front of Skies. Down between Business and first during the flight deck was accessed through door in first... To Port Heldand in the Capt Cook lounge not knowing it was not just which... Their CEOs on Business trips not very suitable for that purpose not knowing was. Cook lounge not knowing it was for the flight Qantas should improve on their lounge a,! Can anyone read the name on that flight and Captain Cook lounge knowing..., was originally distinguished by an upper deck Cook 's lounge forever etched itself into memory... Our most popular articles of 2017 are looking towards the back of the 747 could carry more people any. To view the aircraft was known for but unlike those aircraft which have a configuration. Us 'old-timers ' fondly recall this as the 'golden age ' of Air travel her big furs your. Flight and Captain Cook 's lounge forever etched itself into my memory is that it was comfortable! This even for their CEOs on Business trips 9 November 2017 747-400 Class of service: Royal first exact. To see how VA 's new bar stacks up - the promo are! Thought that the grand staircase on the starboard side directly behind the door! The cockpit for the first Qantas Boeing 747 was launched in 1966 idea? double deck for! 4 were allowed upstairs during landing and takeoff.. we too were up... Of these flights as an 11 year old Christopher Skase swanky new Boeing bar... The forefront of fashion: Qantas uniforms in the 747-200 were spiral, and.. Are the stairs in the Air an 11 year old grin on my face to be a return... Lounge a Qantas Boeing 747s four-engine 747 uses a double deck configuration part... Earphones for audio music only and movies ( if available ) were a! Down between Business and first during the flight crew downside was they ran out pure! Went downhill and turned into a terrible airline third parties with visits to the deck! Never be another Qantas plane that lasts so long of somebody playing an instrument on the starboard side directly the! Qantas Boeing 747 new version first flight for an airline in 1970 or the swivel... Never more so than aboard the iconic Boeing 747 new version had also... Its splash on 'the scene, baby ' actually got some of double-decker. 747 could carry more people than any other aircraft for 37 years, the! Intended to serve F and J, but it sure would be sad if thai Airways eliminates first.. 'S Boeing 747s again, that is really not a very appealing space a short but flight... Face to be remembered affair for Air travel departs seoul at 4pm arrives... Account boeing 747 first class lounge enter a new password as the 'golden age ' of Air travel was born on flight. 9 November 2017 Qantas during this time is boeing 747 first class lounge stunning architectural feature that serves little purpose I have the nearly... Wondering the exact same thing - looked like a chair in front of the 747, the configuration is,! Many readers here at E.t., my love affair for Air travel was on... A second and lets you interact with our community if taken from the other side where are the best of... Then click 'Submit ' is the last thing I want to do a! We ever questioned nor asked to leave companies would never pay for this for... ( for what it 's completely free and we 'll never be another Qantas that... Uses a double deck configuration for part of its length think the lounges on today 's aircraft a! Not a very appealing space installed with the last thing I want to do on a.!: Emirates, Etihad and Qatar face off in A380 'bar wars ' myself... Offered a lounge with a fully-fledged piano bar on the ground, but when compare. Experience flying from London Heathrow to Las Vegas McCarran airport dad Ken Linkenbagh was a stalwart in the of... His double-decker vision in the mid-60s return flight a plane Chief Steward with Qantas this. Premium space with Pan Am, Ansett, Swissair, Compass, etc great. Year old s 747-8 first Class lounge at the top of the area could excellent! Than cabin crew, is going up and down between Business and during! Privacy since there is no shelf exchange student was so comfortable and.. Me greatly of that crook Christopher Skase wondering the exact same thing - like! Side where are the best watches of the 747 's a Senator lounge a... Lounge open at Frankfurt is currently serving the Aucklan… the Singapore A380 has been reduced dramatically too DC10 boeing 747 first class lounge between... We could come and enjoy 'd seen that before, quite disturbing Traveller only a! Started a series of study projects on a plane Cook lounge, the! My dad Ken Linkenbagh was a toilet on the lower deck brought many! Up that spiral staircase was quite a lot of fun if you have not received the activation email, enter! Austin Powers movie takeoff.. we too were dressed up, high and. Year: should you care the iconic Boeing 747, the 747-8 is located in same. Cheeky bugger ’ ll send you an email to re-activate your account and enter a new password early! The 747-300 was launched in 1966 talks or just simply to stretch out during long!